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Offline F-Man

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2007, 01:17:18 am »
I admittedly didn't see the part about ghost data in sonicriders2. That's kick ass, Sega's finally giving a shit. Too bad I'll be getting the PS2 version.

Offline Rolken

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2007, 03:36:27 am »
by the way, how is it expected that Rush Adventure would have worse music than the first Rush? ... just because it isn't made by the same dork?

did you really just call someone a dork

really
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Offline Bilan

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2007, 05:25:33 am »
by the way, how is it expected that Rush Adventure would have worse music than the first Rush? ... just because it isn't made by the same dork?

EDIT: All the Sega Rally games have sucked since the original

Where do you get off being such a liar?

Sega Rally 2 is the best one... I mean sure you can believe that the first one better, but the second one is obviously still part of the family... it's a great game... and by absolutely no means "sucks"... I mean, what the hell?

I have in fact played SR2, I have it somewhere on my shelf, and compared to the original it is total bollocks.

The original is widely regarded as the greatest Saturn racing game, if not the greatest Saturn game because of how it played. SR2 killed that, it didnt feel like the original and it lost its spark.
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Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2007, 06:23:02 am »
Of course you've played Sega Rally 2... the game I was referring to which nobody played is the Sega Rally for Playstation 2... which is not Sega Rally 2 but a different game. You seem to infer in the wording of your post that I accused you of never playing Sega Rally 2, which is not the case. But if you know that, then nevermind.

Quote
The original is widely regarded as the greatest Saturn racing game, if not the greatest Saturn game because of how it played. SR2 killed that, it didnt feel like the original and it lost its spark.

I'm sure the only way it killed that is the fact that it's not a Saturn game.

Both Sega Rally and Sega Rally 2 are great games that play pretty much indentically.

stock Youtube footage:
Sega Rally 1 on Saturn - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDcw0FLa4CE
Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fETNQoVruHU

To boot they each have soul backed up with sweet soundtracks.

I'll be real honest though and admit that I haven't played Rally 1 in many years... although Youtube footage doesn't invoke any revelations whatsoever. It was merely a great game... one that got a great sequel that did it justice.

And finally the snow stage is pure win.

Granted it's Rally Revo we should be concerned about... I wish it's gonna be as cool as Rally 2.

Offline Crowbar

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2007, 12:20:20 pm »
Quote from: GHZ
Whiskers being the Eggman of their world apparently. Nega hasn't shown up yet.

¯\(°_o)/¯

Offline Bilan

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2007, 01:58:03 pm »
Best emoticon ever
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2007, 03:00:13 pm »
And yeah, F-M, that is great. I wonder if I could like face against eggFL's ghost.
Imagine the possibilities for competition this game will bring...

Oh and nice to hear from you otherwise, F-Man.

edit:
Wait, wait WAIT a SECOND. Anyone else notice the mini-site states the game is coming out in WINTER 2008?! What the--?! They're not being consistent with what the original release date was... I'm confused... I really hope it's not the one stated on the mini-site though, even if it is yet-to-be-confirmed/announced.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 03:13:01 pm by knuckles_sonic8 »
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Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2007, 03:33:36 pm »
Yea, Skylights pointed that out.

So I'm just gonna wait until it's sorted out. And it's probably just an error anyway.

By the way... I look forward to racing YOUR ghost... I actually do... a little.

Anyway, hurray for complete lack of Blaze/Nega continuity consistency! Now I can keep saying that only Sonic06 Blaze is canon. x_x

"what are YOU doing here, Sonic? I should be the one asking YOOUUUU that question"
Sonic: "ok I'm ready to talk to Marine again!!"

Seriously though, I embrace unscrupulous retconning. At least I think I do. I'd prefer it to be good. And not changing Blaze's archenemy pointlessly to be more lame with each new game. Or changing Megaman X's art style to suck out its personality and uniqueness. DAMN YOU X8!!!

Offline F-Man

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2007, 03:35:48 pm »
It'll be released during the first winter of 2008. The release date's still the same.

Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2007, 03:52:08 pm »
Darn! And here I was hoping it would be the February 2008 release date. This really bites...

And eggFL, I welcome the challenge. :D
Don't worry, I'm sure each of us will have at LEAST one track of "expertise" if you will and we can see how we fare against each other. :)

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Offline F-Man

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2007, 03:53:31 pm »
Darn! And here I was hoping it would be the February 2008 release date. This really bites...
You really don't get it, do you? >_>

February is in winter.

Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2007, 03:55:44 pm »
>_< Can you say Moron Archives?

Here I was thinking Christmas 2008.... <_<
Boy, am I dense.

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Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2007, 05:03:14 pm »
It all worked out like I said.

By the way, I may not get a Wii in time... just saying... since I don't want to make any promises and look like a deadbeat gamer.

I'm just a bit overwhelmed at the burden of selling my console since I'm practically a hikikomori at this point, even tho last console generation I was selling/trading even consoles like almost some kind of idiot. And I have to do that first... since that's the only way I can afford it and the 360 is damn near useless anyway without online... so I just can't leave it. But even afterwards I may not get a Wii right away but take a vacation instead. x( then get one later if I feel like it. Unless I trade straight up on Gametz.com. Actually I should go manage my account there now since I just about got everything together.

Offline Crowbar

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2007, 05:07:54 pm »
Seriously though, I embrace unscrupulous retconning.

That's right, keep making yourself look stupid.

Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2007, 05:56:01 pm »
How does that make me look stupid? in particular

Offline Crowbar

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2007, 02:25:44 pm »
Because retconning is the worst thing ever?

Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2007, 04:40:22 pm »
Oh... that's it? Well you're an elitist, why would it make a difference to you either way?

Retconning can be used for good, or for evil. It depends on if the new story is deeper or otherwise better than the old, and also partly on how old the obsoleted story is.

In Rush Adventure it's bad because Rush 1 is hardly an old game, even on the same console. And the only change they made apparently is to cycle the villain.

But a good example is Maverick Hunter X, they changed a bunch of the events of the first Megaman X and his origin to make it more dramatic, filled in a ton of plot holes and tons of new stuff, and remade the entire first game with more story, multimedia, and even an anime OVA of the events before the game to cover it. The entire Megaman community recognizes Maverick Hunter X as a good thing even though it made the original SNES out of date.

From my perspective I see retconning as something most fans simply don't want to be done on principle, whether or not it can improve the series. So in a way I see it as something you would do if you are willing to sacrifice something not important (continuity or story of an older game) for a much greater gain (elaborating on the core story, or adding elements to enhance the series).

I'd name some other examples of retconning... but I don't know what to say because pretty all of the stuff I can think of are a bit subtle or just don't seem to make a difference one way or another. Games stories usually don't have a lot of explicit, life-changing events that would make retconning an issue to begin with. (it's always "the day was saved and everything went back to normal") Though the most likely examples then, would be to bring back a dead character without explanation (but even if there is an explanation, it's still sort of retconning if you think about it) or changing the appearance/personality of an already existing character.
 - Dr. Eggman looks like a different character in Sonic06. (and then goes back to the original in all the new games)
 - Chaotix were completely re-introduced in Heroes.

Now Chaotix is clearly retconning probably the biggest example in the Sonic series... although it may not phase many of us because of how old and how little weight the 32X game had.

But anyway who knows, maybe it's explained in Rush Adventure. Like she could simply have two Eggmans in her world.

Offline Crowbar

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2007, 07:16:00 pm »
How does saying retconning is bad make me elitist?

I say it in the awareness that sure, you can retcon a bad plot into one that is technically better. However, the act of retconning itself is invariably confusing and frustrating for the audience.

My biggest beef, though, is that it's symptomatic of a general sloppiness and lack of care taken in storytelling and continuity. Why bother spending time trying to write a good story/introduce a good character etc. when you can rush out a bad one and retcon it away later? Everything just gets devalued. No pride is taken in the world being created, since, in the face of retconning, all it is is some trivial thing that you can arbitrarily change about as you please, rather than something fragile that needs to be carefully managed to maintain its integrity and vision (Bill Watterson talks about this in The Calvin and Hobbes Tenth Anniversary Book).

I'm aware I'm talking about video games, Sonic games, at that, not high literature. However, a consistent and convincing world is just as important in games as in any other fictional medium. (note: somebody on the ball might point out Mario as a counterpoint to this, since he has tons of apparently completely unrelated series, but I consider Mario's universe to fit somewhat differently into this argument; I won't explain that now though since I'm rambling already).

I'm more tolerant of retellings of old stories (you bring up the example of Maverick Hunter X, but I haven't played it myself so can't testify as to its quality), but I consider retellings to be seperate from retconning. Starting over again from scratch is different to changing things randomly as you go along (as seems to be getting done to Blaze's world, which you yourself admit is bad...which makes me wonder why you advocated "unscrupulous" retconning in your post).

You also bring up the examples of Eggman's design change and Chaotix's re-introduction. The former I consider to be purely visual rather than an actual change in the continuity (that is, he's not supposed to have actually changed, they just depict him differently). The latter I don't consider retconning either. Unless they made it clear that they're never supposed to have met Knuckles before (I can't remember Heroes in THAT much detail, but I think it's not really stated either way) all it is is that they're making an appearance after having been away for a while, and have changed outfits somewhat in the meantime.

Um, what are we talking about again?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 07:25:44 pm by Crowbar »

Offline magnum12

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2007, 07:26:30 pm »
Worst example of retconning: Mega Man Zero 4. It basically butchered a good story one year after the previous game was made. Zero 3 had an excellent story. You could tell that Zero 3 was intended to be the final chapter of the Zero series that would resolve all the unanswered questions about the series and what caused the transition from the X series to the Zero series. What Zero 4 did was basically erase all the story that happened after the Copy X fight and cause Dr. Vile (Weil's real name that got erased because Capcom thought Americans would be stupid enough to confuse him with Vile, a purple maverick with a shoulder cannon) to gain power. This caused a whole bunch of plot holes that were clearly answered in Zero 3, such as what happened to Omega and where were the guardians in all of this (they opposed his evil reign because he was a threat to humanity). The reason for this retconning you ask, a cheap way to kill Zero off for the ZX series.
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Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2007, 08:32:00 pm »
All good points Crowbar.

A "convincing and consistent" world is definitely important... but it's the smaller stuff that I'm ok with changing in order to achieve that.

No forget it because in fact, achieving a great game world, one that's convincing and consistent, doesn't have necessarily anything to do with retconning. But retconning is ok to achieve it.

It's a matter of good vs bad and design ethics can't afford to get in the way.

Thing is about Rush Adventure is that the Rush series has nothing to do with creating a consistent or convincing game world... it's just about gameplay and running Sonic on loops in 2D. Only now Rush Adventure has the whole marina theme for whatever reason but won't really accomplish anything except as an excuse for minigames I guess. Which is why it doesn't matter if they change Blaze's villain as far as I'm concerned.

I mean I can understand if Rush fans would be peeved, perhaps I would too, but Rush had poor continuity anyway... the game world was abstract, had no weight... her story was a one-trick pony... nothing really happened in the game besides Blaze's appearance and revelation anyway. And even that was ruined by "I am afraid of heights" which even I can't get over.

And as for Sonic06, it "never happened" anyway because of the "it was all a dream" plot device... which I actually think is a good plot device if used seldomly... because you can make life-changing, dramatic plots while letting you re-use certain characters/elements/emotions for another go later on... and without all the characters becoming jaded and battle-hardened. "Sonic look! a giant!" Sonic: "yea whatevs... I was eaten by a dragon the size of the cosmos once... so why would I be phased at a stupid little giant only 20 times my size??" giant: *sheds tear* It also means we know Silver and Blaze... but have the freedom to use them in any way. Perhaps there could be an re-appearance for them even better and more developed than in Sonic06. I don't mind the way that the Rush games aren't taking away that possibility.

Chaotix don't specfically say they never met Knuckles before, but they do actually comment on never meeting Eggman before.

Just my thoughts.

Offline Bilan

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2007, 11:30:07 pm »
Sonic '06 had the lamest ending ever.
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2007, 11:32:34 pm »
Sonic 06's plot was just an excuse for me to be rest assured that the game never happened.

Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2007, 11:34:09 pm »
The Last Story in its entirety was just plain awful, except for the actual ending which was excellent. It made it worthwhile.

edit:
There's another thing about that... Sonic x Elise... there was no way to end that relationship without being anti-climactic, or killing Elise, or just NOT ending the relationship and having them get married or something, and having Elise a returning character for the rest of the franchise. (might have been a good thing as far as the comics are concerned) So what did they do? They made Sonic undo the events of the game. Nice save! =P

Thing is though... if they did for example get married, BUT the sequel has no mention of Elise whatsoever and Sonic was back to where he was before... in essence retconning... that would have been fine if you ask me. lol
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 11:41:16 pm by eggFL »

Offline Magnezone

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2007, 11:40:50 pm »
Also:

Quote
I mean I can understand if Rush fans would be peeved, perhaps I would too, but Rush had poor continuity anyway...
the game world was abstract,
had no weight...
her story was a one-trick pony...
nothing really happened in the game
Good. Because that's just how it should be. I'm tired of all this epic storyline crap Sega gives us as opposed to giving us an actual game, and that's exactly what Rush didn't do. It's extremely evident that they concentrated on the actual game as opposed to the storyline, and that's how it should be with every single Sonic game if it was built to be a franchise that rivals Mario.

Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2007, 12:43:04 am »
For a game that doesn't concentrate on storyline it sure did manage to screw that part up.

Being even the only real story point in the game!

God damn.

Btw I disagree on the whole "sonic shouldnt be epic" bit... That's partly the whole point of the series.

I mean come on, even the CLASSICS have the epic vibe... the end of each game after the first has you mounting a massive space colony of doom. Sonic 3 & Knuckles? pure epic

The Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic are clearly intended to create epic final stage/boss confrontations.

It's my personal belief that Sonic games (old and new) always felt distinctly a little like movies as you played through them. In my opinion Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 (especially 2) captured that feel perfectly right down to the length of their quests. And hey, movies are always epic.

You're basically playing as superheroes here.. you can't have the story be about getting groceries. It should be HIGH IMPACT, ADRENALINE RUSH stuff. That's what an adventure is, and what Sonic is. I guess the story itself doesn't have to be so extreme but it's hard to imagine otherwise.

But Sonic does get ahead of itself at times. The Last Story in Sonic06 like I said.

See sometimes I think the hardest part is to end it. The adrenaline rush and urgency of Sonic gameplay and storyline building up over the course of the game has to reach a story climax at some point.. and that requires some ingenuity that I think can be too complicated even for Sonic Team, apparently.

Actually I think that might be also in part to the fact that Sonic games need two endings. One for each normal quest and then one for the last story. ... that's a horribly flawed structure... to have the story reach closure and then have to say WHOA back the hell up, there's more spontaneous, random, earth-shattering events. Sonic Adventure 2 kind handled it in its own weird way by making the 'normal' endings extremely brief but then showing a commercial for the next quest.

Even if you don't have an epic ending, you will still need a good story... in fact a non-epic story will be more challenging. (but could turn out really fresh)

Sonic should always be character-driven. The character squabbles are among the best in the industry. Even your precious Rush has Sonic vs. Blaze. (even though it arbitrarily has Tails, Amy, Knuckles, and Cream as well)

Sonic shouldn't try to rival Mario, that time has long past, just as how Sonic itself changed since then. In fact I think it is Mario that should move forward and while at that be more, if just a little bit, like Sonic. The first things I think Mario really needs to do is to return to classic gameplay (no more SHINE GET shenanigans) and finally get some good music, particularly some serious piano/orchestra that alone would make the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neAiLZcy8Qk

in fact an all-piano score would be really chic not to mention instantly better than the current soundtracks, and imo would be really cool with a more realistic game. Also would be cool if you can do stuff in the game to make the tempo speed up or slow down (but the pitch would be the same) and maybe even make the "piano player" mess up (like if you got hit) .. but pulling that off would be a little challenging I can imagine.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

Offline Magnezone

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #85 on: September 04, 2007, 02:04:52 am »
I think you fail to see what I mean by "epic storyline crap." And Sonic 06 just happens to be a prime example of this. I could never have imagined Sonic 06 as it is right now when I first saw the first video of it. Sonic? Just running, beating the crap out of robots? Eggman trying to beat the crap out of him again with some huge-ass army of said-robots? Count me in!

Except then they throw in all of this completely random crap that is supposed to heighten the experience, but utterly fails to make the experience any more memorable. Things like Princess Elise, a human who is suddenly in love with Sonic the Hedgehog and is merely created to annoy the crap out of you on two stages. Things like Mephiles, some generic demonic thing who turns into Shadow for no reason and even has his own RPG-esque item to seal him when need be. Things like Iblis, who just have nothing to do with Sonic the Hedgehog at all and at the same time feel very clone-ish of Perfect Chaos in size and power, just he's a(nother) demon thing that spews fire all over the place and makes things a living hell, pun intended. Things like Shadow again, retconned and refitted for a brand new game that eventually sucked, and all of his "Team Dark" pals that just do nothing but stand there and look pretty for the whole game basically. Things like complicating the crap out of the simple storyline that Rush presented and making Blaze come from this so-called future dimension and have this random generic hedgehog character named Silver that does nothing but rip off of her success in Rush and makes her into her sidekick for like the entire game and doesn't really seem to care when she dies either (some friend he is). Things like Sonic's random untimely death when Mephiles (who should have just been dead) comes out of nowhere and blasts Sonic to smithereens in DBZ-fashion-energy-attack-made-lame, including his cliche'd combination with Iblis who for some reason is stuck inside the princess's body like it was some mighty prison when all she does is whine at you the whole game and want to marry you for saving her like a regular princess, then comes her amazing kiss of life when the chaos emeralds come out of nowhere and somehow revive Sonic making his death scene completely pointless, the whole part where the dimensions are tearing and just pissing you off the whole time....

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

What does Sonic Rush do?

"hi im blaze and im getting my sol emeralds and trying to get back into my dimension now leave me alone i dont trust you"

As a bonus to this relatively SIMPLE general storyline... it doesn't tend to annoy the crap out of me every two seconds either! What is this?! This must be some sort of... madness! It's not epic in the slightest bit, and, well, fine. Don't really care. Too busy blasting eggpawns away and crap like that.

Sonic 2 and 3 & K does not have the kind of "epic" that Sonic 06 did. The only real story elements in Sonic 2 were given to the player through use of two cutscenes, the one where Tails chases Eggman and ends with Sonic hanging onto the side of Eggman's craft through use of his bare hands while the ship docked into the Death Egg, and the other where Sonic just jumps off of the Death Egg and into the atmosphere where Tails catches him on the tornado and they go to the ending woo. But what did they do to make the storyline so epic there? Was it the use of amazing characters and cinematic sequences? Voice acting? ...fusing together a massive cluster of random story elements introduced throughout the game and hoping they'd get some kind of epic result?

You are never shown the Death Egg break into a million pieces and fall down to the planet in the game, but you are given the general sense that what you did was extremely important. You are given a great sense of achievement as you plunge into the planet's atmosphere and the Sonic 2 ending music plays, and nothing you did in the game seemed like it went to any kind of waste and it had no dumb random drama to it such as Tails being the son of Eggman's great-grandson's daughter's pet fox's grandma-with-rabies's descendant transported through time sent to aid Sonic by sending Tails to be his friend for the whole game. You just succeeded. And the game made you feel good about beating the game, too.

Of course, Sonic 06 did that too, but under the previous circumstances, I was glad that nothing in the game ever happened, because now I could feel like this mistake of a game didn't exist at all. Sega seems enroute to believe the same aswell, with its lack of beer-belly Eggman in future Sonic titles that aren't out yet. (just be glad i left him out of my second paragraph.)

Also, might I point out the Mario vs. Sonic rivalry, commonly known today in the form of Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, in which they rival each other to be the best in each event. They're always going to be regarded as rival series. Though I agree on the music part to an extent (that was a pretty awesome video). The production of such music should be paid attention to more as opposed to just resorting to MIDI music, but at the same time whoever makes those tunes for Mario games does a pretty good job at keeping the taste of the Mario style in every game. Sonic still should take a cue or two from Mario games though, as in Sonic should start being a game that doesn't incessantly try and annoy the crap out of me every 5 seconds. >_> (yay rush!)

Still at the same time, Nintendo has always toned down all of the production values in order to accentuate the actual game, so I tend to see them not caring so much about things like orchestrated music... but I guess that's not true anymore after playing Prime 3, with all of its brand-new attention to voice acting. <_< It certainly looks like they'll be doing that again with Smash Bros. Brawl with all of these elaborate cutscenes of which I am now convinced they have one for like every character in the entire game.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 03:11:38 am by SkyLights »

Offline Bilan

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #86 on: September 04, 2007, 03:14:12 am »
The Last Story in its entirety was just plain awful, except for the actual ending which was excellent. It made it worthwhile.

Nono, I said the ending was lame. The rest of the story is pretty decent apart from the cliche death
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Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2007, 03:33:08 am »
A lot of the elements I think are underrated.

I see a couple of positive things as far as Elise goes... they are adding a higher level of presence for humans in a Sonic game.. a good thing... it's also a direct attack on the comics, also good. And it's also drastically playing down the furry aspect of Sonic by giving adolescent gamers something to look at besides Silver's sumptuous curves. Putting Elise as far as into the gameplay was really bold... and therefore in my book good. Sonic could conceivably carry a human and might have to to save one.. therefore a game should show him doing it. The problem was of course the way it was handled... I thought they were going to be mini-stages with perhaps not even any jumping... for all intents and purposes, that's the way it should have been.

Mephiles is good.. he looks boss.. and he's unique as far as the Sonic world goes. It's cool to have a ghost, a "shadow" as a villain... and with that idea they did a great job imo, he is just a really cool villain with cool powers, cool entrances, and he's really detailed which is impressive.

Rouge and Omega actually are relevant to the story, much more so than Tails and Knuckles.

Silver cared about Blaze dying, what are you talking about.

Sonic06 didn't "complicate the crap out of" Rush, it retconned it. Or in other words, it's completely seperate from the Rush version of Blaze.

Silver isn't generic either. He's cute and cool, his design is clever (what with his hair that stands on its end whenever he's using his telekinesis as well as his god-like pose when flying)  and his powers are totally unique.

The rest of what you said is about the Last Story and I agree with you for the most part. It should have been handled better.

Like if I can think of a better version... like, Mephiles should get an emerald in Shadow's ending, and Shadow should lose (in fact, Mephiles might as well kill him) instead of having Mephiles appear with an emerald at the start of the last story. The place where Sonic dies shouldn't be the lame adventure field recycled... it should be someplace new. An open field like in the cutscenes. And Sonic should face Mephiles instead of being killed from behind. And maybe a boss fight could happen you can play. But then Sonic dies. But Elise wouldn't scream, she'd just cry. And fire would come out. And hed be Solaris. And then it should show an alternate CG, instead of the world becoming dark, rather a more dramatic giant explosion or something and the other character reacting. THEN the shadow. Also, the last area "End of the World", it should be subtlely hinted at that it's in fact the afterlife. And the characters shouldn't be all together, just Elise, dead Sonic, and maybe 1-2 other characters. (Blaze comes to mind) and then you play as Blaze or Elise (not too late to develop Blaze! in fact that would rule) and have to go to shrines in a new adventure stage to pray to the other characters, in fact accessing each character's stage. Each character would have a full stage as well as preview cutscene of them waking up in this place and realizing they need to find an emerald. (perhaps innately knowing somehow that Sonic died) Or maybe each character takes their emerald to the next character, tells them what happens, and so on until the last character meets up with Sonic. (in other words I guess, only Shadow and Silver meet up with Elise)  then Sonic is revived but the kiss should be on the forehead or cheek or something, come on. And finally the boss battle would have to be completely overhauled, it would be Solaris but there would be elements of both Iblis (fire) and Mephiles (purple/black ghostly stuff) coming from it and would have the attacks of both... and you'd fight over the burning ruins of Soleanna with a purplish sky (colorful, awesome, much more visceral backdrop than the current one)... and character swapping would happen right away in a cool warp animation via Chaos Control. And it wouldn't be a puzzle, you can attack right away with any character of your preference, or be creative, and mix it up. And Super Silver would be more dramatic, his attacks would have to look stronger, like when he flings back objects he has to move more, and when throwing them back the objects should move faster and maybe leave behind a glowing trail. Also a Blaze and Silver reunion scene would have to be added. And that's about it. Way better.

But having no story wouldn't work. It's not why we are fans.

Sonic stories are good as long as they keep being dramatic and parodical... should be driven by characters, music, and enthusiasm. They should justify the intensity and destruction of what happens in the gameplay. Rush is just half-arsed to me as far as story goes.

Going back ten steps to make a cheap (and ugly) 2D game with cheap story and 2D gameplay through cheap, unrealistic stages is not what I'm into. You can have it, and you got it, and you're getting it again, but imo Sonic really, really needs a new serious 3D title eventually... that is if Sonic is going to have a future and not gradually spiral into obsoletion, or worse, become Megaman.

I personally wish they aren't taking Sonic06 as a reason to step back from serious console entries for an indefinite period of time... that's horrible. They have the game engine and graphics all done, they can pretty much just cram out a new game and focus on the stages and make a Sonic Adventure 2 equivalent of Sonic06. (no town stages, no CG cutscenes, no loss) If they fix up the issues and tighten up the controls in level 3 so to speak, people will notice, reviewers will notice. Make a sweet downloadable demo showcasing the changes.

Just my opinion.

Offline Bilan

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Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2007, 03:36:29 am »
I read most of your post apart from the enormous wall of text because Ive been awake half an hour and couldnt fixate on it long enough to read it, however...

Blaze doesn't die, she simply allows Iblis to inhabit her much as Elise did x years previously and then seals herself in an alternate universe. Although Elise didnt do that but then again she didnt willingly have Iblis jammed inside her either :shrug:
Did you not think I had a mind?

Offline eggFL

Re: New Sonic game stuff
« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2007, 03:40:31 am »
Huh that's interesting, I never thought of it that way before.

So are you telling me, then, that the place where Blaze ends up after her sacrifice is in fact the alternate universe from Rush?

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